New York Magazine's Vulture Festival 2024. Photo Credit: Monica Schipper/Getty Images for Vulture.
Twenty-five years ago this month, Kevin Smith released his cinematic epic Dogma into the world. It was a film that Smith has always said was the result of growing up Catholic, and featured a stacked cast that boasted Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, Chris Rock, Alan Rickman, Salma Hayek, Jason Lee, Jason Mewes, Smith, and Alanis Morrissette as God.
The script even pre-date Smith’s 1994 epic, Clerks. He knew, however, that he wouldn’t be able to make the film on a shoestring budget. And unlike Clerks, where he modeled the role of Dante after himself, he didn’t directly feel like he needed to do the same with a character in Dogma.
“I was in there as Silent Bob already,” Smith told us on the red carpet at Vulture Festival this weekend. “I knew I wanted to put Jay in there. So there was never anything in there that was going to be based on me. I was always going to be in there as the ‘other guy.’”
After shelving the script to make Clerks, he initially intended Dogma to be the next movie he made. So much so that in the end credits, he stated “Jay and Silent Bob will return in Dogma.” However, it would instead wind up being his fourth film, as he felt he needed to get a bit more experience under his belt first as a filmmaker. Additionally, another film would help inspire Smith to take the script even further.
Kevin Smith on the film that would inspire him to develop Dogma's original script further.
“I write it in 1992, before I finish the draft of Clerks - when it was called God - it was 90 pages at best,” Smith told us on the carpet. “Then we go to Cannes for Clerks, but we also see Pulp Fiction, before it ever debuts. At that screening, I was like ‘Oh my God. That’s totally possible. You can go from very funny to very dramatic to very violent. I want to do another pass on God.’ That’s when it became Dogma.”
When you work in the entertainment industry, you get to cross paths with those you admire occasionally. In the case of this film, Smith got the opportunity to do so with someone he looked up to: George Carlin.
For the role of Cardinal Glick, he had Carlin in mind. He grew up watching his HBO specials, and has always said that Carlin helped inform his comedic outlook. Prior to the film getting made, Smith got a chance to sit and meet with Carlin to talk about making the film.
As Smith later said during the panel reflecting on the film, “He comes to the table and he’s like ‘Kevin, big fan.’ I said ‘Oh my god, I know who you are. I’m a big fan.’ He goes ‘I can tell because I read your script.’ And I was like ‘You read it? Did you like it?’ He goes ‘I liked it very much.’ I said ‘What’d you think?’ He goes, ‘I kinda think I inspired a lot of it.’ And I was like ‘You did.’ And he goes ‘Kinda think you owe me co-writing credit.’”
The film has gone onto become regarded as not just one of Smith’s best films from his catalog, but also a cult classic. Unlike most cult classics, however, it wasn’t so easy to find it. That’s because the film was met with controversy prior to its release from the Catholic League. This caused Disney - that owned Miramax, that greenlit the film - to get cold feet and pass the distribution directly to tell Harvey Weinstein that “You have to sell the movie.” The Weinstein’s “sold” it to themselves, though Smith has a feeling they never had to pay for it.
Weinstein licensed Lionsgate to distribute the film in theaters and Columbia to release it on home video. But those deals have since fallen through, and for years, it remained unavailable. This was further complicated once the sexual assault charges against Weinstein materialized. Kevin Smith’s film that was tied to a very personal piece of himself was now in limbo. He attempted to get it back, so he wrote a letter.
Kevin Smith recalls getting the rights to Dogma back.
As Smith said in the panel, “I was like ‘Look. I know you didn’t buy this. I know there’s not a single receipt to prove that this was purchased from Disney. And that’s fine. I know this is just one of many movies that you were involved in. This is my fourth film, and a deep expression of my faith at the time. This is all tied into my father - who’s now dead - and my mother - who’s still alive. So I’m looking to get this movie back, man. Here’s $250,000 that I have to offer. Let’s start a discussion.’ I sent that to a convicted rapist. Got no response from him.“
He did get a response, however, from his lawyer. He was told that it was too low of an offer. He tried again to offer $500,000. Still too low. Finally, with some help of individuals that also wanted to see the film come back, he offered $1,000,000. Still too low is what he was told.
That seemed to be the end of things. A production company offered to get the film from Weinstein, but there had to be a back door profit margin tying it back to Weinstein. Smith told them “I can’t be involved if that dude is in any way, shape, or form involved in this.” To get the movie back and get him out completely seemed to be too expensive for all parties involved.
Then the call came from an organization that bought a giant package of films that Weinstein personally owned. Dogma was one of those.
As Smith told us on the red carpet, “It was a total surprise to me. We got called by the organization that bought it. And they said ‘Hey man. Do you guys wanna meet? We bought your film.’ And finding out that it was away from where we were trying to get it away from was the first welcome relief. At first, it sucked that we didn’t get to buy it. But we tried and also it’s like, it’s out of where it was. And that was the big thing.”
Now that the film has been rescued away from Weinstein, that opens the door to new opportunities. Smith will tour the film next year, there will be a steelbook release, streaming possibilities, and he’s even started thinking about a potential to tell more of that story.
Kevin Smith clears the air on a potential Dogma sequel.
He said, “Years ago, when I was making Dogma, I thought ‘Oh, if I was ever going to make a sequel, this is what I would do.’ I put those thoughts away a long time ago, because it never seemed like it was ever going to come to fruition. Now, I’ve actually afforded myself the opportunity to whimsy again about that world and those characters.”
He continued, “Now some people will be like, ‘Don’t fucking touch it. You’ll ruin it.’ And I’m here to tell you, I will. I will never be able to make Dogma again. When I watch that flick, I’m like ‘Look at that brave motherfucker.’”
Contrary to how certain outlets portrayed it after the panel, he has not started typing up a Dogma sequel yet, as he made clear in an Instagram video posted today. He hasn’t even talked to anyone about it. Instead, he started thinking about what the sequel could look like during a recent drive back from Las Vegas. Nothing is officially set in stone. It’s all still running through his mind, but he has an idea of what he thinks it would look like.
“I’m fucking tickled that I found a way in,” he told the crowd. “I don’t know if it’s going to make anyone happy because most people would be like ‘Oh a sequel! The whole gang’s coming back because most of them are alive still.’ With the exception of George and Alan, the cast is all still around. But why do a ‘Hail, the gang’s all here’? You have to do it different.”
“When you’re trying to write something, all you’re trying to do something is say something that nobody else has said before. And if I just sequel-ize Dogma, that’s me just saying it again. It’s redundant. But if I make a companion for it that says something completely new and building off of what is there, that’d be an interesting exercise that the kid that wrote this years ago never would’ve solved.”
As for the film’s two leads, Smith said he’d like to bring the characters Bartalby and Loki - played by Affleck and Damon - back. He later clarified on Instagram in regards to whether Affleck and Damon would return, “Ben and Matt, not even spoken to them. I would say that I would involve their characters, of course. But whether they come onboard or not is completely up to them down the road.”
Smith still has a lot more in the pipeline before it can get to that point, so it sounds like things are still down the road. But the good news is, regardless of whether or not a sequel even happens, Dogma finally has a future once again.
